Hello all,

Speaking of katana vs. rapier, I have arranged a bout between a kendo 5 dan, iaido 3 dan sensei vs. an SCA white scarf who received a laurel for his fencing ability who is an acolyte of the Capo Ferro tradition. It will happen March 17th and both are looking forward to it.

I'm thinking of putting the rapierist into bogu (expect for the kote - I'll use a leather vambrace) and the kendoka into fencing garb as this will provide appropriate protection from the other's weapon.

The kendoka is also skilled in Nito Ryu so we are planning some Nito vs. Rapier Dagger as well. The rules for Nito for this bout will allow for a valid strike with both the daito and the shoto.

Any ideas from the group on making this happen would be appreciated. I will post film to YouTube when the bout is over.

Hi, Steven ~

This is quite interesting, and things like this should happen more often. It would help our community out of its isolation, and foster positive interaction with other traditions.

Bear in mind that not knowing the people in question, I have to make a lot of assumptions, so feel free to correct me--but this would be my main caveat. You are essentially pitting together a person who comes from an established tradition with proper pedagogy--and someone who may be more or less self-taught.

Also (and I mean this in the most respectful way), I have not yet seen a "Capoferro" fencer who actually fences the system, the whole system and nothing but the system. What I do see is a good representation of postures, guards and techniques often linked by quick reflexes and smart athleticism--but this is still a pretty far cry from fencing one's system as tightly as a properly-instructed Kendoka would his. The only exception I can think of is Maestro Sean Hayes, who, although he'd NEVER admit it, knows and can stay within Capoferro's system for the duration of the bout while not conceding a single notch in effectiveness.

The main element that I've observed is lacking is that dogged adherence to pedagogy which, alone, in my opinion, can eventually make someone a system fencer rather than a good instinctive fighter. And our friends who practice Japanese swordsmanship have a good-size leg up on most of us in this regard--as do those few like Sean Hayes who have undergone years of rigorous training, understand fencing to a T and have applied their set of pedagogical skills to Capoferro.

Still, this is where the majority of the community is at this point, so it will be very interesting to see the video. Keep us posted!

Tom

Thanks Tom. As I stated both are looking forward to it as an opportunity to demonstrate the efficacy of their respective styles in the context of something which might have taken place - Portuguese in Japan, mid-1500s. If you have any information on whether such bouts actually did take place I would appreciate a link.



Both are in their 50s and started fencing at about the same time. The kendoka was trained by Mori Tarao Sensei's son and the rapierist was at one time a highly ranked collegiate epeeist whose career, on the basis of having to raise a family, etc., drifted toward the SCA as an outlet for his desire to continue fencing.

My rapierist would be the first to admit the truth of your assertion. Part of the problem is probably due to the fact that there is no continuous transmission of a system when compared to the ken-ryu of Japan (however, we - and they for that matter - do not have a real idea of whether their tradition has been modified over time, viz, the continual tweaking of the 12 kendo kata by the IKF).



Agreed. They will just have to do the best with what their training and experience has given them over time.



I shall. I'm getting them together in mid-December for some non-full out practice. We have to resolve the safety/equipment issues first.

Steven (or anyone more clueful than I), is Capo Ferro going to reasonably simulate this? I know next to nothing about Capo Ferro, but I thought that Gran Simulacro was not published until 1610. And wouldn't a Portuguese fencer of that time have been more likely to use something more like la verdadera destreza?

Wikipedia tells us that the Portugese opened their trading post in Nagasakin in 1569. Wikipedia also tells us that Japan imposed isolation and expelled foreigners in 1641. Without further information, any sword technique that falls between those dates would be OK. There is a "rumor", told to me by a high-ranked Japanese sensei that Mushashi got the idea for nito ryu by observing European sword and dagger play and adapting it to the weapons which he had at hand. I CANNOT find a source for this save the oral admission of a Nito stylist.

Coming into this a little late (need to check in more often), but I've done a fair amount of playing around at rapier vs. longsword. As is always the case, it's the person, not the tool, at least with any weapon that was meant for reasonably similar conditions. (naturally I'll not take my rapier vs. machine gun... though myth has it that the katana guys do well on this front. )

Assuming that the fencers understand their own weapon fairly well, my biggest observation on pairing up these weapons against each other is whoever understands their opponent's weapon more has the advantage. When fencing rapier against one of my longsword students, the ones who have little to no exposure to rapier suffer the most. The ones who have done at least a reasonable amount of rapier are very difficult to beat. Likewise, when fencing longsword against one of my rapier students, it's the ones who have also practiced longsword who are incredibly difficult, while the ones who have little exposure have more trouble.

A point to consider about the rapier vs. kendo idea:

Keep in mind that Kendo is a sport, and while it is certainly a traditional one that preserves much of the spirit of Japanese swordsmanship, it is still fought with certain rules and conventions that are not seen in other forms of Japanses swordsmanship. Granted, all friendly bouts are going to be artificial for safety's sake, but this does add a further level of artificiality to it. Nothing wrong with doing it, of course, I'm sure it will be fun and insightful to the participants, provided everyone keeps the conclusions in context.

I do very much agree with Tom's assesment, too, about the level of our modern day understanding of rapier, which is still in the process of being revived, as compared to those who are students of a living tradition.

I would add, for the defense of the smallsword, that the French simply call the smallsword "sword" (espee, see Liancour & others) just as the Italians call the rapier "spada". Do note that this épée denomination has nothing to do with the actual épée de combat, which is a completely different thing. It seems as if each state adopts a sword as its own, and simply calls it, "sword", which is most logical.

About the myths: The rapier myths are clearing up, little by little, and the weapon is gaining respect. But what about the smallsword? "Let's ditch the smallsword" is nowaday's greatest trend, and people believe that they can stick the "fragile, weak, one-to-one duelling sword" etiquette on the smallsword. Which is false, as I have already argued by illustrating with treatises and other references, showing that the smallsword was a weapon taught for mortal combat, and not always with matched weapons or in matched situations. This all stems, I believe, from advertising a certain weapon by minimizing another one: I have observed in many sites about historical fencing, things like "after *insert weapon*, fencing was no longer effective, for instance, as with the sissy *insert next weapon*

Which would be, for instance

After the longsword, combat was dead, as it was succeeded by the sissy rapier

or

After the rapier, combat was dead, as it was succeeded by the sissy smallsword

or

After the smallsword, combat was dead, as it was succeeded by the sissy foil

...ENOUGH! Do not all weapons have their merits and their beauty? When I watch a bout of fencing, with any weapon, I can appreciate and feel its own particular art, and understand what makes it special. Enough advertising one's weapon by ditching the next one!

Spot on, Michael.

Yes, French treatises from Liancour forward do refer to their weapon as espee/epee--and indeed, even today, collectors call the smallswords epee, sometimes even with the qualifier "a la mousquetaire," a further acknowledgment of its military, as well as civilian, applications at the time. Incidentally, Italian literature throughout the 18th Century also refer to this weapon as "spada." Marcelli's qualification must have been one of the rare instances in which the weapons' sub-species were deliberately named and identified.

And it's true that so many who are involved in the earlier styles do tend to look at post-1600 swordsmanship through the telephoto lens of remoteness, which greatly compresses their perspective. Rapier is kind of like smallsword which is kind of like Classical fencing which is kind of like sport fencing which is not "for real." This is slowly changing, but it will take time.

The one thing I do disagree with you (happily, I may add) is that I'm gradually noticing a renewed interest in smallsword in the community. This weapon has some staunch advocates in many countries, such as Julian Clark and the excellent Finesse Academy in Canberra down under, Jeanette Martinez, us, MASHS, and--especially--Cecil Longino who in the 2005 tournament at ISMAC made it look not only viable but downright sexy.

Tom

Glad to hear that

has anybody tried pitting a rapier against a smallsword?

I haven't, but Cecil Longino has done this several times, at least. I saw him do this in a tournament at ISMAC a few years ago. Given Marcelli's discussion about the spadino, how to use it, and how to fight against it with a rapier, this was certainly not unheard of in the late 1600s.

Steve

Is there a translation of his work available?

Unfortunately, no. It's a very long work (~310 pages) with few images, so it's a lot of work (and it isn't exactly at a child's level).

Steve

I have done it. It was really hard for either fencer to hit or get hit. The rapier has much more reach than smallsword, but the smallsword is quicker and for all practical purposes against a rapier it is all forte. Basically the rapier fencer couldn't easily get past the smallsword fencer's defense, and the smallsword fencer couldn't easily close distance enough to land the hit.