I'm having some problems with Marozzo's dagger section, specifically Cap's 54 & 57 dealing with the defence of the thrust.

The translation by Bill Wilson just isn't making sense, so I'm redoing it. My Italian is really bad, slow and plodding so I'm putting up to hopefully get someone to double check it for me.

Marozzo Cap 54
Essendo in coda longa e stretta e ‘l tuo nimico ti tresse d’una ponta al pugno del pugnale, in trare di detta ponta tu alcierai la mano tua a l’insuso tanto che passi la ponta sua e a un tempo medesimo tu gli darai d’uno roverso traversato de sopra del suo braccio del pugnale;

Bill's translation
If you are in the coda lunga e stretta and your enemy thrusts to your dagger hand, in the said thrust you will raise your hand and pass by the thrust. In the same time you will give a roverso traversato to his upper dagger arm

My Translation
Being in coda lunga e stretta and your enemy thrusts at your dagger hand, as they make the thrust to which hand you will raise it up and the point will pass and in the same time you will give a roverso traversato over their dagger arm;

Marozzo Cap 57
Hora nota che essendo rimaso in coda longa e stretta e ‘l tuo nimico te cacciasse d’una ponta de sotto in suso con el pugnale suo, voglio che in uno medesimo tempo tu gli dia d’uno meggio roverso de sopra del suo braccio dritto;

Bill's translation
Note now that being in the coda lunga e stretta, if your enemy gives you a rising thrust with the dagger, I want you to (in the same time) give a mezzo mandritto to his upper right arm;

My translation
Now note that continue being in coda lunga e stretta and your enemy thrusts forth with an underthrust (rising thrust?) with his dagger at you, you shall at the same time give a meggio roverso over his right arm;

I'm a bit happier with the idea of cutting roverso over the dagger arm, but just want to make sure it's not my wishful thinking.

Thanks to anyone who can spend some time double-checking my work.

Richard

Richard,

Your stuff looks pretty good.


Okay, this is just nit-picking, but his, please (unless you have multiple opponents). We'll have none of that substituting of the 3rd person plural pronoun for the 3rd person masculine singular pronoun in a gender-neutral situation on this forum


The phrase "...una ponta de sotto in suso..." literally means "...a thrust upward from below..."; "a rising thrust" would also be a good translation.


I agree with cutting the Riverso "over the dagger arm". It also makes sense tactically, if you consider that your opponent is thrusting upward and you are cutting downward--thus, stopping his thrust.

Steve

Thanks Steve, coming from you that makes feel a little bit more confident in what I'm doing.



Point taken!



It also tends to deflect the dagger hand to your outside, and playing around with it, the cut over the arm is a very natural response. The cut to the upper arm was just leaving me stuck like a spit roast pig.

Thanks for your help,
Richard

I was joking (although the current fashion of sprinkling texts with 'her' and 'they' in the name of gender-equity drives me nuts--even though just about everyone uses 'they' for non-specific gender when speaking at least a little (I know that I do).


Yeah, I would think that you'd have to be in pretty close to pull that off (i.e. cut to the upper arm).

Steve

Hi!

The last mezzo roverso has been puzzling me slightly. Given that you start in coda longa, the natural movement would be to cut a mandritto, if you wanted to actually stop the thrust.

But if you avoid the thrust with footwork, you could cut a roverso.

Or, if you turn your point downwards you can stop it as well, cutting from your left to your right.

All the other bits in this nice and short section are fairly straight forward, but how do you guys do this one?


Yours,
Ilkka

Hi Ilkka,

You are on the right track with the turning of the point downwards.

As the opponent makes the rising thrust, your dagger goes to the top of the opponent's wrist, then you deflect it to your outside with the roverso, the dagger point describing a semi-circle anticlockwise. Your point is then at their chest and you can give them a nasty thrust.

(In classical Italian fencing parlance, you'd engage the top of the wrist with your dagger hand in 3rd, then parry / cut to 2nd.)

Marozzo specifically says to do it without moving the feet. I find I naturally do it by "voiding the vita" as I reach to engage the wrist, then return to guard to make the thrust. Basically the front leg straightens as I pull back the hips, to something that looks a bit like the Italian rapier stance, and then I bend the front knee bringing the hips back forwards again to deliver the thrust. You have that big curve from foot to hand as you reach out and engage.

Hope that makes sense,
Richard

Hi,

yes, that is exactly the way I do this defense. Forgot about the instruction to stand still.

Calling a point down action a mezzo roverso is consistent with some of the instructions for the sword as well, if I recall right. I can't remember where exactly, but I seem to be remembering that a parry against a roverso to your leg can be parried with exactly a mezzo roverso done as a parry and not as a void of the leg and cut to the arm. Can't remember where it was, though.

- Ilkka

Hmm the second defence for Coda Lunga Alta in Manciolino's Capitolo 20 sounds like that:


Your basic parry of second!

Richard