What are those instructions? What technique does he use to throw the knife? How does he time it so it hits point first? When does he advise to use it? How does he incorporate it into his system?

These instructions are interesting since we seem to have very little/nothing written about the use of small thrown weapons from the Western world except for recent knife throwing manuals (19th to 20th Century). As opposed to several Chinese and Japanese arts where small throwing weapons feature quite prominently.

Thanks in advance.

(Also, I am not sure where exactly this thread should go, since it is about a weapon other than the rapier yet is about a weapon in the tradition of the Baroque masters. Tell me if I need to move it to "General Discussion" or "Other Weapons".)

Given the source, this seems to be the right forum.

Anyway, quickly looking through Marcelli, he says that you can throw the dagger at someone who is as far as 8 to 10 paces, the target being either someone who is trying to escape or someone "who is made brave by distance" to incite him to come at you. He suggests that you start by practicing relatively close to the target to increasing the distance as you get better. He also says to throw the dagger over-handed, and says that although some throw it under-handed, he does not recommend that as it will have less force and you are more likely to miss.

There really isn't much only about one page), and he doesn't really give any technical details beyond what I gave you. It is a rather interesting technique to contemplate, but be warned that if you practice this with your parrying dagger, there is a decent chance that it will be damaged unless you throw it at a soft target surrounded by soft terrain (such as a hay bail on the lawn).

Steve

If someone wants to practice throwing knives (something I've only done at so-called Renaissance fairs), they sell knives specially made for the purpose (i.e., they'll stand up to the [ab]use). It's fun. (My suggestion is, for once, to use a full over-arm, from-the-shoulder throw, for accuracy, releasing your grip when the knife is pointed at your target.)

Thanks for the information.

Anything about whether to grip by the blade or handle and how many (if any) spins there should be? I get the sense it is a no-spin (or very little spin), from the handle throw. How have you interpreted it?

Unfortunately, he doesn't give any answers to these questions.

Steve

Alright, thanks anyways, I should have noticed earlier when you mentioned that he doesn't give any more technical details .

Yes, he does describe where and how you should grip the dagger.

"Grip the dagger by the point with your right hand, holding the blade with the thumb and the middle finger (plus the two other smaller fingers). Rest the index along the dagger's edge, so you can use it to push upon the dagger as you throw it, giving it more force."

No word about the number of spins, since it depends on the distance, but the fact that he has you use the index in the manner described points towards his preference for a spinning throw.

Tom

Hmmm...that'll teach me to read more closely before I post...

Steve

A bit OT, but how on earth do you throw a dagger without the spin? Never managed it myself.

Cheers,

Joseph

Underhanded could be done without a spin, but the velocity would be lacking. I don't think it can be done overhand.

When throwing, it is important to attempt consistent force/speed with every throw. The thumb should be over the center of balance of your particular weapon. As for the number of rotations, go for either one half, or one and 1/2 depending on how far you are throwing. That is, with your arm fully extended just prior to release, the tip points towards you. It then rotates 180o or 540o with the tip at the opponent. Any more and you're just guessing, really.

I should point out that parrying daggers are not the best balanced weapons to throw, and that the method I use to throw them (or any other large knife/dagger) has me holding (pinching) the blade with
my index and thumb only (at the center of balance), and the edges facing to the right and left rather than up or down. Unless I'm misunderstanding it, Tom's translation implies that the blade is "gripped" almost in the manner of a sword hilt. This has a few problems;
1.) Almost guarantees you slicing your hand open unless you are wearing gloves
2.) Is wildly inconsistent.

After a few hours of screwing around with my dagger practicing, I threw 20 throws. All of which hit the target. 3 were enough of a penetration to be considered as a possible "kill shot", 4 went in so wonky and crooked that the opponent's clothing would be sufficient protection, the rest didn't stick at all, went in pommel first etc... My target was a 24" log at 8 meters. I stuck a playing card on as a bull's eye. Unless there is some essential "trick" that I'm missing,the method in the text doesn't work.

My way I got 14 solid strikes,3 crooked strikes, a deflection and 2 misses.

It seems to me that regardless of whether I got stuck with the pointy end or not, it's going to be pretty painful to get hit with. I can also see the fear of getting hit with a thrown dagger making me move and provide a tempo or enough surprise to be put to fear if I were a fencer described as 'flemmatico' I'm generally cool headed, but that would be a pretty big shock to have an 8" to 12" inch bladed dagger with a pretty substantial pommel come flying toward me. For an opponent at double advance lunge distance, that could provide pretty good opportunity...

Pete Kautz teaches a method that is very similar to what's being described in Marcelli, so its really just a matter of practice.

Hey Tom, I've been meaning to ask you this for ages, but keep forgetting: In what circumstances is the thrown dagger acceptable in the duel? I had always been under the impression that if the participants agreed to rapier and dagger, one couldn't simply get rid of the dagger, but when I'd first heard of this technique I began to wonder if my understanding was incorrect.

Ohh I've tried that dagger that i used as a throwing knife, it's effective.