I might ask this question on SFI, depending on what responses I get here:

As I see it, there are four books that have been published for Italian Rapier to this point:

Tom's Fabris Translation
William Wilson's Arte of Defence
Jared Kirby's Capoferro Translation (and also Jherek's and William's version available online)
Guy Windsor's Interpretation and Practice book based on Capoferro

Given that, what type of work is the community ready for? Translations of shorter works? Interpretations? Study Guides? Curricula?

Steve

I think that a short work on how to understand what is written in the books you mention, combined with techniques on how to turn what is read into drills would be good. Also included should be how to take what is taught at the many symposiums and turn it into a foundation for further education.
I've noticed in many other groups that we fence with, that they take what they've learned from either having someone out or going to classes and drill it well. Then they seem to stagnate because they don't know how to procede from where the insrtuction left off.
Just my 2 cents

Sean K.

I'd have to agree with Sean, however, it is against my personal bent. But, I believe what is needed is a good practical curriculum, study guide, and drills; something to help develop people who use the style, rather than something grafted on.

Steve

I want translations of original material, but I think the community would be well served by a companion volume to a treatise. Not a huge book on basics, but rather an explanation of how the original material is a system, lots of example lessons and drills for people to go through, etc.

I'd agree, and that's how I look at Windsor's book as a accompaniment to Capo Ferro. So perhaps an interpretation/explanation of Fabris would be in order, though the original is pretty clear already.

Another option is a translation of one of the later works that uses a lighter blade and dui tempi actions. As many novices will begin with a foil or epee as all they have available, it would be nice to have something they can begin with not allied to sport fencing and would provide an easier transition to a heavier blade.

-- Andrew

Andrew, later 17th C works do not necessarily use a lighter blade (even contrary to what I used to think). And, their use of due tempi is merely spelled out better as books take on a more practical form rather than being treatises on the ideal form of swordsmanship.

I think that if people were to buy M. Gaugler's book "The Science of Fencing" and go through the foil section diligently--with the changes I outline below--this would make a book about understanding the "roadmap" through old rapier treatises all but unnecessary.

If the desire is to see how techniques and concepts are linked in a coherent manner in all Italian rapier treatises, plus a great number of useful drills that are perfectly applicable to rapier, this solution, while not perfect, would be very effective--and immediately available.

Changes:

~ Use a rapier instead of a foil
~ Adopt a rapier guard (e.g. Marcelli's)--but be as meticulous as Gaugler is in describing and forming it
~ Eliminate actions from first (and arguably, even most from second)
~ Use the hand in seconda-terza for all parries, engagements and glides in third
~ Finish all thrusts to the outside with the hand in seconda
~ Eliminate compound actions involving more than one feint.

There you have it.

Tom

Good ideas, I have gone through Gaugler's Science of Fencing, probably should again. A book that outlined Marcelli's guard would be handy though as I don't really know what that looks like. For those already familiar with Gaugler, I think a translation of Marcelli or Parise would be a next logical step.

-- Andrew

Marcelli is such a long text (315 dense pages of text with very few plates), although it is an absolutely fantastic work. I think that a translation of Bondi di Mazo is more likely--perhaps with included interpretation--as it has a manageable amount of text and many clear plates (but finding a copy to license them from would be a challenge). For the earlier stuff, Giganti is an excellent (and clear) author who merits (I feel) the same treatment (i.e. good, readable translation and enough interpretation to fill in the blanks).

To me, Parise is the master of all modern fencing treatises, and is fantastic for its completeness, clarity and consistency (think Gaugler, but even better). Unfortunately, the WMA community just doesn't seem that interested in classical fencing (with a few important exceptions).

Steve

One could pretty much print a copy of Parise's synoptic tables and magic-marker through all the actions that fail to agree with the changes Tom suggested above, and be in pretty good shape.

I really enjoy looking at original material and trying to decipher the intent, so translations are what I crave. I may be the minority, but sometimes I'd rather get something wrong 10 times before I figure it out than have someone else tell me how to do it the first time. Sometimes.

I would, however, love to see a Fabris book similar to what Guy Windsor did with Capoferro. I can't possibly be alone in that.

I probably should have replied to this earlier, but didn't. The truth of it is that this is one of the worst possible ways to learn fencing. The earliest repetitions of any action are the ones that absolutely need to be as correct as possible because they color the student's understanding and opinion of the action. In other words, it provides the box within which most student's think, most of the time. Further repetitions refine the action, smooth it up and cement it. Learning it incorrectly and practicing it incorrectly even a few times will make learning it correctly much, much more difficult because of the basic habit being set quickly.

This is compounded if, heaven forbid, bouting is allowed during the learning stage, because there intermittent reinforcement may be found by having the incorrect action work in practice on occasion - then the mindset quickly becomes "well, it worked once, so it must be right - I just need to do it faster/harder".

The ideal course of action is to learn everything correctly the first time - and practice it correctly thereafter until the action is automatically correct when not under pressure, before adding in any pressure to perform.

For most systems/texts, we are, or should be, well beyond the point that there is any need to re-invent the wheel. Continued attempts to do so will not help advance the overall skill level in the community. Stumbling around in the dark and trying to decipher things was probably a good M.O. about 5 or 6 years ago, but certainly isn't today, when there are at least a few people in the community who can understand, execute, and teach the material.

As a sort-of adjunct to what Chris said, I think that even with a great translation sometimes precise execution can be confusing if you've never seen it in real life. I think a DVD showcasing Fabris' plates would be fabulous.

I must add my Capo Ferro translation to the list, which has been available in the UK for nearly three years and hope to have it available in the US before the end of the year.
- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rapier-Fencing-Ridolfo-Capo-Ferro/dp/1906512272/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257954185&sr=8-1

In terms of what the community is ready for or needs, it is an interesting topic which I have been giving much throught to recently. Around 2005 I started writing a rapier interpretation manual, and after a few months hard work on it I came to the conclusion that I was not happy with it and wanted a load more experience teaching before I carried on. This was the point where I decided to do the translation, knowing it would force me to get to know the material well. In 2007 I picked up my interpretation project and a number of times binned and started again, until finally this year I became disatisfied with the entire medium.

This conclusion was largely based on seeing how my students and other practitioners from other countries bought and used both translations and interpretations, as well as comments they had made to me. So many people are just not motivated enough to work through written material, it simply just not being engaging enough. At the same time, it occurs to me that the masters gave us outstanding and exquisite books, using the best technology they had on offer, and whilst we make use of modern prinicpals for making training weapons, modern masks and punture proof fabrics, we do not make enough usage of modern communication mediums.

Many times I have given considation to making a training DVD, but in a complete format the production time is long and lessons fixed once the DVD is in production. With these issues in mind I have decided to set up a website which is going to be dedicated to the study of rapier, primarily revolving around 5-10 minute video lessons which will all be hosted on youtube for public viewing. This method allows me to shoot one video per week (I run three sessions a week), which only take 15-20 minutes to film. These videos will allow me to continually evolve my teachings, as I do in class, as well as respond to other practitioners and instructors comments and requests. The videos will mainly focus on the techniques of Capo Ferro, not just showing how the techniques of each plate work, but also why they work and training prinicpals and tactics which surround them. Please do not think that this is me touting a product, because there is nothing for sale, this is all going to be free.

Simply put, I see too many people buying books and allowing them to gather dust on the shelves, whilst so many people around the country that contact me looking for tuition do not have access to instructors and I am forced to say essentially, start from scratch with a book. I have already organised a lot of written material for the new website and shot the first video, though the sound quality was not of a good enough standard, though i have now sorted tie clip mics ready to re-shoot it next week.

Also, I am not simply saying this is the only way that further tuition can work, by no means, I think books definately continue to have their place, but I think as instructors we should all take a look outside the box and see what other means we have at our disposal to help both our students and potential future rapier students around the world.